A Customer Journey Map is not a ****ing deliverable / Marc Stickdorn / Episode #1

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A Customer Journey Map is not a ****ing deliverable / Marc Stickdorn / Episode #1 1
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I’m Marc Stickdorn and this is the ServiceDesign Show. In the Service Design Show we talk to peoplethat are shaping the service design field about the current state of the industry andthe exciting new developments. Today special guests is Marc Stickdorn.Probably a lot of you already know Marc because hes the journalist and coauthor of this bookcalled this is service design theory. Marc is also do two work layout relevant startupscalled Smaply and Experience Fellow. And some of you are eligible to once have watched him during apresentation or a talk he demonstrates all around the world.was that a good preface was that sort of correctwas great short and snappy I like that Marc I’m going to ask this question to allof my guests what was your first reminiscence of services pattern what was the first momentyou got in touch with service design I was working in the tourism industry doinginnovation projects and I was struggling with the style I was teached I was acquainted aboutinnovation in my classic management education because I studied strategic conduct whichwas pretty linear speculating linear tools and trash like you have an idea first you haveto write a business plan and perform and I failed really hard again and again do thatwhen I then heard first time about pattern belief service designing I get actually intriguedand it felt to me like a son opening a casket of toys because unexpectedly I had refers for stuffI was doing but I announced it differently and I realized that the road I sneaked througha project actually wasn’t smuggle through projection it was just iterating but I didn’tknow that I was iterating at that time I was just thinking disappointing all the time and thenI went truly intrigued in that and I learned more and moreand can you actually recall the speaker or the essay the book that you touched andthe found the subject I can’t recall really it was 2007 that’s for sure and it was relatedto tourism because I was working tourism industry and I don’t know where I read an article aboutdesign thinking and I get really interest in that I moved to Austria where I startedworking at MCI Business School where one of my jobs was actually teaching servicedesign having a research project in that and that was the moment when I actually startedresearching in depth about that so is not merely rehearsing it even though announcing it differentlybut then actually mining into to the heritage you became a service design professorI’m still

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like a clutter prof at the University for a few daysMarc let’s go on the topics you moment me to we have found a format to actually makethis into a cocreation session because in service design we cherish cocreation and believein the power of cocreation so we’re also going to cocreate the demonstrate sort of let usexplain the format of how it directs right I have a topic right here and I’ll maintained it upand you have a different load of papers right that’s rightso you have a different load of documents and your newspapers start with a questions starterI’ll give you a topic you’ll collect a questions starter and then you can ramble on the topicwhatever you like and then we’ll continue from thatPerfect Easy rightOkay so let’s just jump-start right in and I will pick this one because this is probably a topica lot of service decorators can relate to you this is service design intend reflecting UXcustomer experience interaction design and a lot of other blueprint subjects yeah howdo you counter that I pick that oneI pick why why the heck do we have so many identifies fordoing more or less the same thing which is design I think its really strange becausewe’re having so many discussions right now going on defining what exactly is designedthinking compared to service design compared to UX design and so on and so fort we’re inpractice what we’re trying to do in organizations is we are trying to break down silos we tryto connect different department to connect with trying to cocreate like you said weredoing this show but then at the same time in our little foams of motif making servicedesign we are building up silos again by saying oh no this is not part of service design thisis part of design foreseeing this is part of UX or this is part of CX what the heck I don’tunderstand I don’t get it I don’t know why the heck we’re building up new silos whenwe all follow a similar iterative process maybe with slightly different implements adjusts butits once mingled regardles well my question would be who is creating these silos is itthe designers or the outside world trying to understand design and framed it into somethingthey can put in a container I think it’s both of course if people like to learn about thatand they sounds different utterances they like to understand whats significant differences Andit doesn’t really make sense if youre brand-new to something why you have different labelswhich appear very similar thing and then of course you have to practitioners the agenciesin house departments and I find two different approaches there on the one entrust you havethe agencies who say we don’t care how you call it this because basically all our clientsare calling it differently anyway depending on the organization culture and so we don’tgive a damn which

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description you out on it but then of course you have other agencies andin house department who once build up a honour in this specific field and theylike to defend their own field saying oh no this is service design or this is UX and notdesign recalling I can understand both sides but I fantasize as a community we would reallygrow much easier we can learn much easier from one another when we get rid of this languagebarriers final question about this because what doyou think needs to happen to break down the silos within designI dont know i mean on the one entrust it will be always buzzwords right and and scheme thinkingand service intend nowadays is a buzzword and now thatbold statement Well it is like that if you take a look atall the the business consultancy they’re all saying they are doing it now doing it so definitelyit is buzzword and if the Harvard Business Review designation layout belief comes out ofage yet I imply its going a lot of attention we agreeon that yeah I think we have to look beyond the buzzwordsto understand very what is a process what is a tool plan that how do we work what isthe culture and that is more important than simply the label of it and if we agreed on thatit doesn’t really matter which description you put in there but look beyond that to understandwhat is the process and how do we work together then we can really proceedWe need more collaborations instead of more definitionsexactly accurately I recall having a good discussion on how we work is much more valuable thanhaving a discussion how we call what we do itlet us use this evidence for that to discuss how we work because I agree with you Marc let’smove on to the second topic AllrightI’ll pick this one it’s called experiment in practiceyeah well as I have so many question starters here let me “ve been trying to” pick one randomlySo I dont know what the questions going to get I is taking this one and examine what itis when will we are at last do really good research in practicewhat do you mean well often I learn so my background is partlyacademic and partly in practice so I genuinely try to connect both world-wide And then my backgroundis also in management I got civilized a lot in quantitative implements before I moved intodesign and learn more and more about qualitative ethnographic comings and what I see isthat many companies nowadays use busines design however you call that I call it service designand some time as an excuse to do bad experiment because they say we just need some qualitativeresearch so they go out do a few cases interviews they come back and say that is what it isAnd thats not really valuable you can then base design decisions on really wrong assumptionsbecause they only come back to prove their assumptions what they already had they justdo a little bit of research heavily biased and then they develop concoctions which suitstheir own needs and not the need of the customer because they certainly didnt understandso it like merely like exercising research for checking a carton rather than actually doing proper researchexactly I say just as an example even if the large organization tries really hard to dothat they sometimes contrive designing research with a gantt graph I’ve been in research projects wherethey had a huge whiteboard every morning they had a meeting with the team of approximately 15 researcherswhere they said ok we need 500 interrogations the work requires 300 in live calls we need and soon and they just tick boxes say ok let’s try to get 10 more today so we are done withouteven looking at the data so for a few months they were only collecting data without lookingat the data and at some extent they started to drown in data and they were looking foran approach for how can we actually analyze it now that we have like 500 interviews 300 in live trips and if you have an academic approaching in there you that this approach isuseless because in qualitative experiment what you’re looking for is theoretical saturationyou want to find for example the five biggest faults in your customer knowledge if your aretalking about an existing experience and once you got and further interviews and observationsonly prove what you already know there’s no need in doing further interviewsso I genuinely recognize what you’re saying and I think it has a lot to deal with parties actuallygoing into the design research with a validating mindset rather than a explorative mindsetis that something you recognize very Perfectly absolutely and I remember also indesign there is a place to validate minutes if we think of prototyping the whole ideaof prototyping is of course to assessment things so we have a list of topics we need to validatewe have possibilities expectations that we need to test and then it make sense but the beginningof a project where you very need explorative material it doesn’t make sense so I think thereis often a culture schism in parties sometimes use an excuse to do less research and sometimesthey still use the same mindset the same framework they use from quantitative field exactly applyingit to qualitative discipline and I think we need a better educationyeah oh a hard topic because it’s really requires a different culture differentmindset and it’s about hugging ambiguity which is really hard if you are in a surroundingthat is about this about Gantt charts and presage how many interviews well doso any any impressions on how we can move a gradation beyond the current research methodsWell what I think what I see in business and academia right now is that there is actuallytrend away from merely focussing on the quantative nonsense to mixed method approachings where youmix quan and qual or genuinely to do two different qualitative approaches and now with increasingtechnology it becomes also much more accessible for companies because you if you have videosfrom snippets from users for example if “youve had” videos of observances in house visitsand so on it’s often much more powerful to see a client disappointing exerting your productor service than having statistics about how patrons are failing and I think we bothneed we need to prove yes this is a real issue but then we need the qualitative parts andpieces proving or testifying why actually they neglect and I meditate these mingled method approachesindustry is getting that and I see education is moving along with that and it will justa matter of time I think it will be a very good step if organizationsbe would just a little bit more patient in their research and not mounting on the assumptionsfrom the head start exactly calmnes would be a good medication I recall for better pattern researchwell period is coin yeah well go slow to go fast I’m not surewho said that but go slow to go fast Exactly exactlyMarc already you already inkling about something expending new technology and new tools let’s moveon to the final topic and its called tools and softwareTools and software let me Let me pick.I like that.How much. How much Iam not going to answer how muchthat costs but Im going to answer how much engineering application do we actually need inservice design and you mentioned that in the beginning with our fellowship we moved away fromdoing projects and we really focus on developing tools and software for service design andthats what we are doing with both our startups smaply and knowledge peer and we are totallyaware there won’t be a software who can solve everything but i think there are a few problemscompanies always struggle with where specific application make sense so how much do we needdefinitely we don’t need any technology when we do workshops because I remember mitts on workshophands on prototyping sessions expedition planning conference with pen and paper this is absolutelygold and there won’t be an exchange for that of course collaboration tools help if youdon’t get a team in one room so before you don’t do anything get it on practically fair enoughbut i think face to face workshop is still the way to go nonetheless there are these momentsafter a workshop where you have your wall plastered with article templates and posterswe all know those situations Exactly so that is what we try to tackle thenwith smaply with the software to quickly process subsequentlies where it is possible engrave it out againbut then it should always connect the sides on pen and paper work with digital digitalthe digital should always be a level on top which helps to which originates your life easierthat’s the whole idea of it I think we shouldn’t try to get rid of the handwritings on employ reallydo you think decorators are a bit scared to use technologyno I don’t they are scared I think we love technology but one of its most important things in servicedesign or the key sciences for me is actually facillitation so how do you work how do youmoderate training workshops how do you setup the workshop how do you create an experience that peoplewithin their room feel safe and are open enough to share and try out things and technologywon’t help you there that’s a human ability and we don’t need to be scared of technologythere we need to use in a moment where it make sensewe’ll made some links to your implements in the description of this video because I hope alot of parties will just give it a go and give it a try and see how it augments their processi think thats genuinely valuable I don’t want to see the sales pitch hereWell Ill do it for you well framed the links in the descriptionwhat is the biggest challenge developing tools and software for service designersI thinks its the same as every startup we got the same issues I want business so onestartup we financed we bootstrapped we we money it out of our own pocket we financedit through our projections and merely developing part of it at some point needs more attentionwhich again means you can do less activities “youve been” need to focus them and that’s whatwe’re doing now so we stopped doing service design campaigns I still do my talk my workshoptrain the coach and stuff but I don’t do service scheme assignments anymore because wereally want to focus on developing the tools and then you have all the classic publishes youhave a small team a limited budget you have gigantic roadmap of pieces you want to put inthere and you want to create a great experience you don’t have the time and money to do everythingright from the beginning so unquestionably we are failing but I think we are pretty openabout that we communicate that so we really live the service design spirit of cocreatingwith our purchasers having usability discussions we talk a lot of with them incorporate thatback so I consider agile development process merges perfectly with the service design processso we talk about purchaser experience sprints where we do research we put into the developmentwe propel it we start all over again every two weeks basicallyIs there a action the witness of this video can help out in any way creating better softwarecan you repeat the question so if you said you are involving consumers andactually practitioners in the development is there a space parties that are watching thisvideo right now can participate well sure basically everybody can participateyou can sign up for free for 14 daytimes daylights and even precisely in the trial period try it outand give us feedback so either schedule a request with us schedule a usability sessionwith us whatever it is you share you screen and we watch you working with that schedule a sessionwhere we talk through how you used it in a workshop and after seminar and what workedand didn’t work and through that we are developing it further and we are doing that a couplea times per week actually having these sessions good to know and final thing about softwareis I’m really curious to see brand-new software and tools come through here and knowledge in whichphase of the design process it will be like you already said it probably won’t be in theworkshop for facilitation will it be in the research time will it be the analysis phaseprobably in both but I’m really curious to see what happens in that fieldI think it’s a great progress because we can see that already there is more and moredifferent software coming up highly specialized to very specialized topics and for me it isalso the interesting becuase I think we as the service design community can use thatto do us to get a foot in the door to companionships investigate business like forester for exampleput out report for available software for Customer Journey Mapping what we realizedis that companies start out don’t care they just buy the software they start using itat some moment they realize this is a software ok I can do a expedition delineate but how do I getto the data to it abruptly they reach out to us and ask us how does it toil and we saymaybe you should actually work with one of your local assistance pattern agency and get sometraining in that and maybe do a project because its time a piece of software like Excelor Word doesn’t help you to write a journal you still need to do itinteresting thought and I believe them recognize on there it does it really easier for companiesto jump on the bandwagon of customer knowledge purchaser excursions research and then they openedPandora’s box they don’t know what they’ve startedAbsolutely when I talk at meeting I speak a good deal at UX management discussions in a fewweeks I will be speaking at a lead forum at Harvard business school which is crazythat they invite somebody to talk about service design and what am telling there always isstuff like a patron tour planned is not a fucking deliverable and because that’s whatmany think we buy this software we do a wander planned and then youre done no youre notand that they should base their outing delineate on research and not just assumptions so alot of my talk I try to educate them well not educate but at least give them the hintthat create awareness i thinkWorking just assumption based is not the right way to do that and they going to disappoint by doingthat and I to be expected that through that we would grow the whole service design community evenmore thank you for your contribution to the servicedesign community so far many Marc we are sort of heading into their final time of our talkthe question I want to ask you is beings that want to get into service design parties thatwant to start with service design what is the single most valuable tip you would givethem don’t try to learn it out of a book I’m guiltywith that myself with the book I did was Jacob but we design a textbook not as a go to resourceso my single most valuable tip for that is if you really want to learn about servicedesign join one of your local global assistance jam-packs because I think that is a worldwide nonfor profit event where you can learn how to you can experience in a kind of pressure cookingformat 48 hours how this process directs you learn new people I think thats one bestways to get into service design Awesome is there are a question you wouldlike to ask the audience the onlookers a question that you have yourself and that we will givethe opportunity for beings to make a few comments on this videoyeah oh yeah well with our brand-new focus now that we really stepped like we took a step backwe are not an organization we don’t do campaigns we really want to create tools and softwarefor you guys doing service blueprint out there we already have a few makes now out therebut it won’t expiration there so we have consignments doctrine of what else we are also able do so my question tothe community would be what do you need what do “youve been” struggle with and there is notyet a solution and you would like somebody to make this task and develop something tohelp you we’ll recognize what comes up I reflect a parties strugglewith a lot of things Marc thank you for your time it was awesometalking to you thank you for having taking the time to be part of the service design reveal a conceptwe are still developing What are your thoughts about the topics wevediscussed today and if you have any suggestions on who we should invite next to the show besure to let us know down below in the comments If you experienced this episode and like to seemore interrogations with assistance pattern innovators subscribe to our direct and check out someof the past episodes.With the service design prove we help you tostay one step ahead within assistance motif by talking to the people that are actuallyshaping the field. For now, thanks for watching ..

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